Green Tea AI Strategy Dicussion for version 0.5
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Green Tea AI Strategy Dicussion for version 0.5
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The next version 0.5, the AI will have specific strategy for each race. That mean each commander will specific to fight in one race.
_ The next things is that, they can change to another commander : Yes, that mean ones the commander feel losing and see that their strategy is not appropriate, they will change their personality to other commander.
For Ex: When the current commander lose the match, they see that the enemy is weak vs Air, they will call out the Air Commander and change their strategy to Air.
This thread will discussion some appropriate strategy for each Race. :)
First, Terran Race;
Vs Terran:
_ Commander Purple: Tank + Viking.
when tank is using for destroy ground units, viking add to strengthen air force, also help to protect siege tank if necessary,
She can also add more Marauder when necessary ( to kill the armor unit )
_ Commander Orange: Total Air Force: Banshee + Viking + Battle Cruiser.
When the commander see a significant of Siege tank in the enemy Tank, they will call these commander to product all in air units to avoid siege tank damage.
_ Out of idea :P, need your help.
Vs Protoss:
* Every commander when vs protoss build Ghost. Will be most of the old Commander version, i think it do well again Protoss
+ Commande Black : Reaper, but will build earlier the last version, using 8 Barracks.
+ Commander Red : Thor + MM Ball
+ Commander Blue: Marauder early push
+ Commander Grey: Tank + MM Ball
+ Commander Pink: Medivac + MM Ball
+ Commander White: Banshee
Problem:
_ With storm, AI can doge,so not problem, but when vs Colossi, how to counter, Viking or Tank better ?
Vs Zerg:
+ Commander Pink: 3M
+ Commander White: Banshee
+ Commander Green: Mech ( Hellion, Thor, Tank)
+ Commander Blue: Marauder
While the White Banshee will sometime surprise the early Zerg enemy. The mid game often switch between commander Pink , Green & Blue.
Pink when vs Hydralisk, Zergling, if they have Banelling or Infestor, switch to Commander Green, Mech Play. And when they have using mostly Roach, switch to Blue or White commander depend on the situation.
more dynamic battle when commanders r change their strategy while its own not works.
commander converts his mind to another commander mind.is it possible?
I did not know that it can be done.
78.187.4.xxx
Second Protoss Race:
Vs Zerg:
+ Son, High Templar
+ Viet, Dark Templar
+ Hai, Void Ray
+ Duy, Colossi
+ Thanh, Immortal
so there are some variety and surprise for the player, but this time will try to build very fast. So then won't spend money to much on product units like previous version.
The key is switching commander, if too much Roach, switch to Thanh, to much Hydralisk, switch to Duy.
Vs Protoss & Terran:
....
Finally Zerg Race.
The Zerg have an advantage, can easily switch to other strategy and change unit, so instead, we will change to 3 group : Early, Mid and Late:
Early: this is for variation in early:
Rat : 6 pool
Mouse : 10 pool
Mole : 14 pool 15 ex
Cat : Overpool
....
Mid, the early commander will switch to these commander when in mid game ( Lair )
Snake : Hydralisk
Cat : Baneling
Dog : Roach
Bat : Multalisk
ofcourse will switch depend on enemy composition in each Race.
Late ,
Eagle : BroodLord
Elephant: Ultralisk
All these commander will add some Infestor in some situation : Vs 3M, Collosi, Battle Cruiser, Thor.
That the basic idea of how it work. But we need some of your advice :)
@ joinny 5:
yeah, that can be done when we have some condition to measure:
_ Time: every 5 minute, it will check the enemy Units and see if it build is appropriate are not.
_ After battle: after one battle, if AI lost, it will check again what commander will be appropriate in next situation.
_ third : this condition may not appear in next version: Ally condition, measure ally army to change commander approriate for them.
The commander can change each other mine by easy changing their state, when meet 3 condition above.
AISetMainState(player, e_mainState_OpenAir0, e_mainSubState_Unset);
Tanks would only be a better idea if the Colossi weren't upgraded.
If the Ai can determine the player upgraded Colossi range, then it should start making a few Vikings to go along with its push to better deal with them, as well as providing vision through the fog of war so the tanks may get shots off them too before the Colossi quickly gets in range and decimates them.
Most tvst games are air vs air.
Some T user try to rush with tank and some rines
but what you can see in most reps , who make first 2 startport and air units win.
There aren't so many opening in tvst..
anyway.. normal opening is always 15 orbital for all mu .
For protoss, u can add some nice push, like WhiteRa push in PVZ .. vs T..... 4 gate + robo or startport.. one of most used opening, but anyway it need a good use of force field and sentry for defend .
Most Z user like to rush with banelings against Terrans, u can see DImaga Style for understand..
If you have no idea, watch some reps and copy it.
if u need i upload some reps for you no problem.
Colossus Are needed for Protoss, cuz they are the best on ground, in mid-late if P had some colossus is very strong for T and Z , vs Z colo + field + some other units.. vs T Colo + zea + Storm (Do a lots of damages )
my just 2 cent
95.238.170.xxx
A continuation on your idea of AI swapping is an AI for each race that would be swapped into that would handle early game defense.
It seems that all of the AIs are a bit weak at the 5 to 8 minute mark, and fall easily to sustained pressure (except for rushing AI's). A protoss 4 gate build with constant zealot harass for example.
Terran would want to wall off their main and bring up SCVs for repair with a few marines to hold off attack.
Protoss would want to fall back and hold their ramp, and might throw down a cannon for quick defense.
Zerg would want to throw down a couple of spine crawlers, and mass zerglings to handle this threat.
The AI's are very potent when you get towards the 10 minute mark.
I know that if I am getting intense early pressure I am going to modify my strategy a little bit to make sure my main and expand are protected before continuing up the tech tree, the AIs should do this as well.
72.230.149.xxx
Terran Vs Terran
The big thing is its a battle for tank vision (they shoot farther than they see).
You can use the watchtowers, scans, air superiority, flying buildings and stealthed units to get the vision range. The ai should abuse these things as much as possible.
Legendary is right that it often boils down to wanting air superiority.
That said, I believe you can have a bunch of TvT commanders.
The standard opening is a 1-1-1. Then the fast viking.
The main alternative opening would be 3-4 barracks given marines can shoot air.
After that it can diverge quite a bit. I've seen every unit but battlecruisers involved in pro games.
Anti-tank builds:
Viking-Tank-Maurader
Thor-Medivacs-Maurader (some vikings as needed).
Other ideas.
Fast banshees with stealth. Into tanks, thors, ravens.
The Terran versus Protoss commanders all might have some success too after a standard TvT opening (no ghosts). Keep in mind Legendary's post when tweaking them.
TvP and collosi
I agree with Yucie. If you had to choose between tanks and vikings (aka a build with neither), go with the vikings.
TvZ
Commander Green (Mech play) is the flavor of the month.
I'd warn that Zerg can switch between units much more easily than Terran. So definitely try to upgrade and stick to one Commander as much as possible, having that commander simply adapt which of his units he is leaning toward.
Suddenly switching commanders and adding a whole new set of unit-producing structures and upgrades won't work very well. Gradually diversifying while pumping out the most appropriate units currently available would be better.
Hi Greentea! So from the programming point of view it is best to do response to a unit composition with that operator switching method?
ok, I will think of a system and post it later.
Now some build ideas in general:
TvZ:
One legendary cheesy banshee build is first vespine, then 10 supply barrack-factory-airport-depot. Here wall of with factory+Barrack is important:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAkK7wqBpRQ&feature=channel
TvP: do your normal build but block ramp (with depot-barrack+Vespine-marine-commandocentr-depot)
and then do either a banshee (factory followed by Airport and build tech lab at the factory and fly away to settle the airport there. produce marines and hellions in between as many as it doesn´t delay the airport. When the first banshee arrives a push with all units can be tried) or m&m build (tech lab at first barrack starting the concussive update to go with marauders against first zealots, then build a second with reactor and a third with tech lab and try to push.
Cheesy TvP reaper build:
in the beginning build 1 SUV- send out 1 that will build a proxy barrack later. then 7 supply barrack- 7 suply vespine and after that SUVs again but not more than 10 supply. When barracks finished immediately tech lab. then 10 supply depot+ first reaper as tech lab is ready. The early reaper are deadly against protoss if microed well.
The commander that uses m&m +ghost against protoss should add a reactor to the first airport to support m&m with vikings against colossi.
PvZ:
Zaelot rush or either try early colossi or phoenixes to do harass and eliminate the possibility for mutalisks. General: Go for Zealots and Centries rather than stalker in the beginning and wall off with gate and pylon in the beginning to create a small passing point where the zealots can fight attacking zerglings in 1on1.
PvT:
Generally: Go for fast stalker to be able to deal with hellions, reapers, banshees or marauders with concussive. Against marines stalkers alone are ineffective so you need centries with guardian shield and zealots as support.
Stalkers have to protect colossi from vikings.
Occasional dark templars are great as well. Try to be quite fast in expanding.
This so far. I will think now of the commander-counter unit thing.
81.189.240.xxx
By the way:
Is there a list or may you list all the commanders that exist so far, so that I can try to use them in a responsive system?
81.189.240.xxx
T vs P
when you playing in "Lost Temple", Thor drop in second hill around first multi point is very effecitve strategy.
Thor is superior than any ground except Immotal but Thor shoot it em all by 250mm striker cannon.
I think it isn't easy that implanting to your A.I but It's worth to trying.
222.235.99.xxx
Yes, we still working on transport attacking. But is a little hard to coordinate with the map. Since there is no definition in function to point out that a good point to attack :).
I have one comment to make on this, and that is that your strategies seem to be much too focused. Like, there's no "balanced" commander. It's all "focus on one or two units" and that isn't fun.
I'd much prefer most of the commanders to use a bit more variety, and then a few commanders have the specific unit focuses.
67.160.137.xxx
The "Balance Commander will have some issue". Because it build many kinds of unit so it need upgrade for each kinds of units. For example, terran will have upgrade marine shield, stimpack, banshee cloak, ghost cloak, siegetank, hellion, reaper speed, thor strike cannon, raven missile,... Think about it, it hard to achieve all these upgrade. So it must beneficial to focus on 1 or 3 type only. Unless the AI have plenty of resources, it will build other kinds of units.
Why Ai not help allies ?
109.122.12.xxx
I think the unit focus for each type of commander is great. It allows you to focus from the player perspective on the type of unit and how to beat it if you are practicing.
Continuing with what TeniGloss has said, having played with AI, it never works with a human player but I don't think that is very feasible in making an AI thought.
I know you have built some "counters" into this AI but I was wondering if it is possible to build more? For example the "photon cannon" rush or other similar strategies?
114.33.158.xxx
@Tenigloss : For now, the AI just measure the Closest enemy AI to build and adapt, next time, i will let the AI measure army strength of the whole allies and total enemy, so it can attack at the same time, if total allies strength larger than total enemy strength. And if they feel weaker, they will prefer to defend and help allies.
@Crianp : for now, i'm stoping on develop AI build order and focus to improve on battle side of the AI. ^^.
Hi! I found a little problem with the ai. This problem when i exp in an island, the AI wont attack it, no harass no any attack, no single AA turret is need. If the map got island, the player got a free exp against the AI. Implement to attack/harass island exp. :D
87.97.123.xxx
Hello! In the latest 0.56, I noticed a really weird action done by the AI - I built a BB on the AI-teammate's desired new exp, the AI's clever enough to go to exp another one, but, 2 mins later, all its collectors went to mine the BB site and then returned the resources to their first base, even though its new exp was much nearer!? :O
180.94.138.xxx
I've played 10 matches, Zerg vs Terran. Mostly 2 vs 2 and some were 1 vs 1. I also observed 10 ZvT matches, again 2 vs 2 and some 1 vs 1.
Terran won 19 out of 20. Zerg are expanding too fast and are not building enough units.
86.80.236.xxx